Wars of the Republic Questions

[Greg]

Hi Eric,

I hope you are well. I have just purchased your WotR rules and they look like a mean, lean wargame ruleset perfect for a club night. I have a couple of questions about the rules:

1) Open order troops can move anywhere - does this mean they can interpenetrate other units? Can formed (I.e. phalanx) units interpenetrate?
2) Units within 6 MU of a unit in contact can provide support by moving sideways or forwards. Can a unit in Phalanx do this, given the formation is only allowed to move directly forward? If a unit is in Legion Formation it can only move directly left, right and forwards, so can it provide support to a unit that is diagonal to it?

Many thanks,
Greg

[Eric Farrington]

First off, thank you for ordering a copy of the book! Secondly, these are good questions Greg.

I do not have a copy of the book handy to quote page numbers, but here are your answers.

1. All units must stay 1 MU away from any other unit, including friendly units unless they are in support or coming into contact.

2. Yes the Phalanx or Legion formation can make this "support" move, but to be clear the 6MU is measured from the Officer/Point of Focus for the unit. In practice this means the units themselves are probably only 2 or less MU from each other, and relatively close to each other in the battle line.

This represents units simply forming up into a single unit by extending their line or other similar in-the-weeds tactical movement rather than movement to cover ground.

I am composing a living FAQ to post up in the future and I will be sure to put these questions on the FAQ! Let me know if you have further questions.

[Greg]

Hi Eric,

That's great - thanks for replying. I knew the answers were obvious if I properly read the rules! Another couple of questions:

1) Can a unit provide support if the support move brings it into contact with an enemy unit?
2) Does a support unit only support one unit, or can it support two units?
3) Is missile fire 360 degrees or is it limited to the front of the missile unit?

Thanks again for your help,
Greg

[Eric Farrington]

1. Yes, but it pulls that enemy unit into support of the larger melee as well. This one seems tougher to occur, but I can think of a couple ways it could happen.

2. It can only support 1 unit, and then in essence gets "connected" to that unit's fate as well.

3. 360.

Hope that helps.

[Tony]

This question applies to Men of Bronze primarily, but also Wars of the Republic. I encountered the problem in MoB when I was playing it, and noticed it still exists in WotR, although I admit I haven't played it yet.

I simply couldn't find the answer, and finally just gave up mid game.

So, I moved a unit of horse, armed with javelins to 6BW of a unit of hoplites. That is the maximum range of javelins, so they throw a few the hoplites way. Quite rightly, there's fairly low odds of any real damage done to the heavily armoured and shielded infantry, although they're certainly not invulnerable.

It's now the hoplites turn. And I'm going to assume everyone has enough Arete points. Anyway, they spend an Arete point to charge, so their charge move is double, so they are able to charge a total of 12 BW. As mentioned, they were at 6BW distance to the horse, because that is the maximum javelin range. The hoplites contact the cavalry.

The horse quickly spend an Arete point to Evade. So they roll a die, but the maximum they can retreat is 3 BW. The hoplites still have 6BW remaining, so easily catch the horse (as per the third bullet point in the Evade section) and crush them quite handily in melee.

My conundrum is this - heavily armed hoplites will therefore always catch light skimishing horse? Or psiloi, or peltasts or archers/slingers.

The Move and Shoot rule seems very clear and provides no help, as you cannot shoot and move back out of charge range, but rather have one round of missile shooting, and then the skirmishers will be caught and killed.

This of course seems very, very wrong.

But I can't figure out what I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!

[Eric Farrington]

Well, Wars of the Republic does make a few big changes to this situation.

1. Charge distance is Move and a half, instead of doubled. Therefore, a Hoplite unit can only charge 9 MU in WoTR.
2. Evade has been updated so that Horsemen Evade 1d6 MU and footmen 1d3 MU
3. Pursue has a similar change

This helps resolve those situations. However, for the most part in MoB you are 100% right. The reason is that Hoplites were the dominate force on the battlefield, and MoB purposely reduces the effectiveness of other units. This then makes the player focus on the unit that was historically the star.

However, the classic mistake I saw people doing in playtesting MoB was trying to use Peltasts and Cavalry to go head-to-head against Hoplites, which I designed to ensure would never work. Cavalry and Light forces are not designed to stand-up to Hoplites, only drilled infantry and above or other Hoplites can. The idea is that the lighter, missile units then go around and flank, or attack in the rear. Cavalry and light units are really only good at deleting enemy cavalry and light units so that you CAN access the hoplites flank and rears. The other way to use light troops/cavalry as speed bumps. The final tactical element is speed to grab objectives. Light/Cavalry units have a completely different function on the battlefield.

The key point is that Light troops/cavalry can not stand up to hoplites in a straight up fight, but they can win with trickery, maneuver, playing to the objective, and careful sacrificing of units. I hope that helps.

[DavidS]

It's good those changes were made to WotR. A skirmish tactic of 'Move and Shoot' wouldn't really be seen as light cavalry going 'head-to-head' with the hoplites. And the rules should just as much dissuade hoplites going head-to-head with light cavalry, as the latter will tend to evade. (Although I'm not against the harassment tactic leading to less disciplined infantry breaking ranks to pursue.) Turn sequences can distort 'real time' activity (time-and-space), where certain actions would be occurring concurrently.

I have just started with the WotR system, and have a couple of questions:

1. There does not appear to be any differentiation significant between a hoplite phalanx and a pike phalanx. From what I have read, a pike phalanx could generally drive most non-pike armed infantry back when fighting from the front (but maybe lacked a short term knock-out punch to be a decisive arm). But unit stats don't seem to support that.
2. Are the Lines of Battle lists, with their min/max units, meant to be around a particular point value? Or do those min/max units apply even when scaling up army points?
3. (An observation) It would have been helpful to have had the point value against each unit in the lines of battle lists (pp 34-42).

[Eric Farrington]

WELCOME David!

1. Yes, others have pointed this out as well. The intention was for the Hoplite units to have 1 less Courage.

2. They are meant that even when you scale up points to apply. The lists were not designed with a set points limit in mind. The Sample armies are only 32 (?) points or so, but that is not the basis of the army lists themselves. So, even if you scale your battles up to 56 points, the restrictions still apply.

3. I good one, as I have run into that issue as well!

[Hazdrubal]

My reading of the rules leads me to believe that a unit can only fight if it chooses the fight activation or charges.

What happens if a unit finds itself in a melee but has not chosen fight?

[Eric Farrington]

First off! WELCOME!

If a unit does not choose fight, and finds itself in Melee.... that is a bad place to be. It rolls no attack dice in the Melee.

The most common situation is the unit chooses to move or shoot and completes its move. Then, they get charged by an enemy unit. In that case, the unit that did not choose Fight in the Melee rolls no dice. Only the unit that charged/chose Fight gets to.

Make sense?

[Brian Thomas]

Hello Eric and thank you for answering questions regarding rules. I Played Wars of the Republic for the first time yesterday and have several questions but i will send them one at a time so as not to overwhelm.
Question. Are Courage losses cumulative and carried over each turn or are they only lost for the turn of melee they are in then after the melee they are restored ?
Thanks
Brian

[rayk]

Hi Eric!  My gaming group had fun trying out Wars of the Republic last week.  But with our fancy maneuvering, we did encounter some questions where we were not sure what the rules intent was.

1) Are “Open order formations” meant to be handled pretty flexibly?  They can expand and shrink frontage freely, especially when terrain would force figures to “bunch up” to pass through?  Squeezing between small gaps between other units, a unit could play ‘follow the leader’ in a column move/charge.

2) Can you give a “fight” activation to a unit that is not yet in contact with an enemy?  It would be precautionary, in anticipation of being charged.

3) Do units who wish to provide SUPPORT have to be issued a FIGHT activation?  We realize they can charge into the enemy in order to support, but can they instead simply just MOVE into 6 MU range of the primary engaged friendly unit and then be ‘pulled in’ to the big melee?  Can Wavering units choose to be drawn into Support?  There does not seem to be any penalty for them in the overall melee result determination.

4) Can a charging Support unit generate a FLANK bonus when charging an enemy Support unit, or does it have to be against the initially contacted enemy unit’s flank?   . . .  Can a Support unit that is “pulled in” to touch it’s friendly main unit but also ends up touching the enemy’s flank similarly generates a “unit attacking Flank” bonus?

5) Does a unit providing rear support have to be facing the same direction as it’s main friendly unit?  (I.e., can it be pulled in perpendicularly., INF if it started that way, or would it turn to align to same facing.

6) In one of our brawling melees, one side ended up with a “U” formation encircling the enemy. But when forced to retreat due to ‘push-back”, which would take precedence:  each unit moving “straight back” from the enemy (and thus retaining same location relative to enemy), or “support units staying connected to the unit they were supporting (which would “unfold” the U to a straighter line.)

7) What happens if a unit cannot directly retreat in a push-back?  Due to terrain? Due to other friendly units?  Does it go as far as it can? Can it veer a bit to the side? Can it push back friendliest?  Or is is destroyed?

8) Can you rally a Wavering unit locked in Melee?  (We saw you can’t Harangue such units.)

9) Can a player re-roll an opponent’s die roll?   . . . In one melee brawl involving 16 dice vs 10 dice, each side opted to use some 5 re-rolls (at 1 Commander’s Gaze each, of course). It was interesting to figure out if more effective to re-roll own misses, or enemy hits, or the discipline rolls.

10). There does not appear to be any Minimum Gaps (between other units) for a unit to be eligible to shoot through.  If the leader can see through a 1-2 MU gap, his whole unit can shoot? 

Thanks for you consideration!
 

[Eric Farrington]

Thank you for your purchase and trying out the game!

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

Hi Eric!  My gaming group had fun trying out Wars of the Republic last week.  But with our fancy maneuvering, we did encounter some questions where we were not sure what the rules intent was.

1) Are “Open order formations” meant to be handled pretty flexibly?  They can expand and shrink frontage freely, especially when terrain would force figures to “bunch up” to pass through?  Squeezing between small gaps between other units, a unit could play ‘follow the leader’ in a column move/charge.

Yes, they are meant to be very flexible and maneuverable.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

2) Can you give a “fight” activation to a unit that is not yet in contact with an enemy?  It would be precautionary, in anticipation of being charged.

Yes indeed. If you expect to be charged, then yes you should!

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

3) Do units who wish to provide SUPPORT have to be issued a FIGHT activation?  We realize they can charge into the enemy in order to support, but can they instead simply just MOVE into 6 MU range of the primary engaged friendly unit and then be ‘pulled in’ to the big melee?  Can Wavering units choose to be drawn into Support?  There does not seem to be any penalty for them in the overall melee result determination.

You can be pulled in during the melee, despite the "activation" you had. Of course, you have to be within range of being a "support" unit.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

4) Can a charging Support unit generate a FLANK bonus when charging an enemy Support unit, or does it have to be against the initially contacted enemy unit’s flank?   . . .  Can a Support unit that is “pulled in” to touch it’s friendly main unit but also ends up touching the enemy’s flank similarly generates a “unit attacking Flank” bonus?

Yes, if you charge into the big melee you can get the Flank bonus from the big battle. This may require some adjudication of what is a "flank" but generally some common sense makes it obvious. If you have to go "by the book" then use the Focal Point of the main unit compared to the angle of attack of the charging unit's focal point to adjudicate if it is a flank, rear, or simply a support attack. Writing it is a bit awkward, so let me know if that does not make sense.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

5) Does a unit providing rear support have to be facing the same direction as it’s main friendly unit?  (I.e., can it be pulled in perpendicularly., INF if it started that way, or would it turn to align to same facing.

Support units can be any facing, as long as they meet the criteria in the rules to be a support unit, i.e the distance from the main unit.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

6) In one of our brawling melees, one side ended up with a “U” formation encircling the enemy. But when forced to retreat due to ‘push-back”, which would take precedence:  each unit moving “straight back” from the enemy (and thus retaining same location relative to enemy), or “support units staying connected to the unit they were supporting (which would “unfold” the U to a straighter line.)

You push back the main unit, and the support units stay connected to the main unit, therefore unfolding the "U" if the opponent does not follow up right away. Therefore, by losing you can lose your flank attack bonus. Be sure to win that melee!

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

7) What happens if a unit cannot directly retreat in a push-back?  Due to terrain? Due to other friendly units?  Does it go as far as it can? Can it veer a bit to the side? Can it push back friendliest?  Or is is destroyed?

Good question. If a unit is pushed back into friendlies, the friendlies are forced to be support units to that melee going forward and they all move back with the push-back! This can lead to skilled units getting tied up and destroyed with lesser units so be careful in your deployment and order of battle!

If they get pushed back into terrain, they enter that terrain, and suffer any advantages or drawbacks from being pushed back. So, you might lose formation, get armor bonuses, or have to take dangerous terrain tests.

If you are pushed back into Impassable terrain, you stop at the edge of the terrain and can not be pushed back further and that is about it as written.

Although, I think a house rule about being forced to Waver and take an additional Morale test would be in order. Therefore, if you are wavering and fail morale again you would take more Courage loss.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

8) Can you rally a Wavering unit locked in Melee?  (We saw you can’t Harangue such units.)

You can, but that counts as its activation, so it can not fight!

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

9) Can a player re-roll an opponent’s die roll?   . . . In one melee brawl involving 16 dice vs 10 dice, each side opted to use some 5 re-rolls (at 1 Commander’s Gaze each, of course). It was interesting to figure out if more effective to re-roll own misses, or enemy hits, or the discipline rolls.

You have hit on an interesting idea. I intentionally left it "a single dice" so yes you can! Not many people have noticed or called this out. Nice catch!

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

10). There does not appear to be any Minimum Gaps (between other units) for a unit to be eligible to shoot through.  If the leader can see through a 1-2 MU gap, his whole unit can shoot? 

That is correct. Shooting is all ready down played in the game, so I don't want to make it completely useless. LOS comes from the leader.

Dec 3, 2022 10:10:57 GMT rayk said:

Thanks for you consideration!
 

Great questions and it sounds like you guys had a few fun games! I look forward to see and hearing more about your games!